For an interesting bit of indie game developer drama, notorious braggarts J Force Games challenged some indie group named GyroVorbis (?) to a contest: which of their current in-production games will get a higher average review score after release?
GyroVorbis was having none of it though, and perhaps wisely refused the challenge, instead making a small game mocking part of their game mock JForce Games.
The videos are entertaining to watch, especially if you've heard of J Force before. I think people tend to take J Force too seriously, GyroVorbis included. They're just kids having fun and making games, nothing you should hate them over.
I talked to their marketing guy over instant message today and he's much nicer and less arrogant in person than he is in his videos. And he does seem to know a lot about marketing, so he's not all just hot air.
All in all, I'm happy J Force Games exists, they liven up the indie game community.
ROFL
Omfg, you have to admit that GyroVorbis has style.
All in all, JForce was completely asking for it. It's clear that GyroVorbis initially supported them, I read their forum post. JForce just wants some of the Youtube fame that GyroVorbis has established for his team and project.
And you didn't quite have it right. What they showed off wasn't a "game" they made for JForce. They are developing an entire 2D RPG engine, and they built JForce their own level, complete with some custom art and lua scripting.
I'm not a hater of JForce, they are pretty entertaining, and I am a subscriber of theirs as well as GyroVorbis. But they really are too arrogant for their business. Or maybe they weren't, but they seriously messed with the wrong group of developers.
Thanks
Thanks for the correction. I'm surprised that's their real game though, I'd have thought that an RPG made for Dreamcast wouldn't have worse art than the SNES and rip graphics from Mega Man etc.
I agree that most of their team is overconfident; that Ty guy seems the worst to me (what does he even do for their team besides criticize the others? spiritual leadership?). But I don't think they're any more arrogant than any game developers are when starting out, I was perhaps just as arrogant 15 years ago when I started making games in QBASIC. So I think it's an age thing, they'll grow up one day.
Graphics
Those graphics are only test graphics. They were developing the engine using other graphics, rather than wait around for their artists to finish theirs. Everything will be original when its done.
That's fine, but still, why
That's fine, but still, why promote it before those graphics are ready? Why start making a series on how to make games before they've even finished a game?
Maybe there's something amazing about what they're doing, but so far what I've seen is:
- Basic RPG engine running on a Dreamcast emulator that doesn't do anything 2D game engines like Game Maker and RPGMaker can't do in five minutes.
- Ripped graphics that will be replaced.
And they're making a series on how to make games, based on that experience?
I mean, to someone who has been making indie games for 15 years, you have to understand how that can look a little presumptuous -- although admittedly not as presumptuous as JForce, who have even less done.
What makes you think their
What makes you think their series is about how to make games? He made a how to get started for people who ask him how to make games. You think he gave bad advice on how to get started? Their videos are about them developing their game. Not about them saying they are developing the best indie game. They also enjoy programming, so where would the fun be in using RPG maker?
I haven't seen them yet but,
I haven't seen them yet but, I think that if I were just starting out, and hadn't made a game yet, I wouldn't even answer if someone asked me how to make games. I'd just say I don't know yet.
I think that's a reasonable response. Making a video series on how make games, even when someone asks you to, doesn't seem like a reasonable response if you haven't even finished one yet.
And, you can program in game engines, they just don't force you to. But there's still a lot of programming that goes on. Immortal Defense was made in Game Maker but has 15,000 lines of code. But that's another topic, we shouldn't get off-track :D
...what?
What?
First of all, they have never once run their game on any sort of emulator. I wish that I understood where you get things like "they are doing this illegally," "they are using ripped sprites," "this is their first game."
You are so biased. Every time that you make a comment, you make things up about the project. I respect the fact that you admitted your ignorance by saying that you haven't watched their videos--I really do, but every response shows you saying things that are completely untrue after this.
Where did you get that they were using an emulator? Every single video of the Dreamcast version SHOWS them literally running it on the Dreamcast. They use a VGA box, which allows the DC to output to a monitor, I'm assuming that's where you arrived at this completely wrong conclusion.
I wish that I understood your bias. Every post is putting this team who you have never even talked to down. You say that you talked to Jeremy? Go talk to Falco.
Also, they have been doing this for years. This is not their first project by any means.
And I think that game maker has skewed your idea of things. They have built an entire engine, and they are now moving on to making a game. They built everything that you do in game maker. They built the backend. Now they can actually "make" their game using their own in house engine, editor, etc. I think you take all of this for granted as game maker does it for you.
You are acting like their videos are showing off a game. Nothing up to this point has been a "game" in any fashion. It's all their engine and in-house development suite. They are basically making their own RPG maker, and I believe that every comment you have made thus far has belittled that fact.
I didn't mean to show any
I didn't mean to show any bias, I was trying to be objective.
Perhaps it's not their first game, but if they don't have a website and if their YouTube account doesn't show any completed games, I can only assume it's their first game. Apologies if I'm wrong.
I know nothing about Dreamcast development, so I assumed it was illegal and that they were running it on an emulator, similar to how SNES (etc.) development is done today. If I'm wrong about that, fine, but it wasn't a bias, it was just a mistake.
And the ripped sprites are in their own video! You can't really say they don't rip sprites if they use ripped sprites in the video of the game where they made fun of JForce.
I'd love to talk to Falco, but I don't really know him; I know Jeremy because he has been posting on indie game messageboards for years. But I don't see why I should have to talk to him. As I said, I don't really care about this drama battle between the two, I just thought it was entertaining. You seem like a fan of Falco, which causes you to see as bias anything I say which isn't totally on Falco's "side", whatever that means.
I never discounted GyroVorbis's technical expertise, just their game-making expertise. Being able to program an engine doesn't mean you can make a good game. The two are completely different skills.
If their videos are just explaining how to program for Dreamcast, that'd be fine, I haven't watched them yet, but I was under the impression that they were giving out game development advice, and nobody should do that just based on experience in creating a game engine, because being good at one doesn't make you good at the other, just as being a good musician doesn't make you a good visual artist.
Another thing is, your
Another thing is, your assumption about me and GM is incorrect: I've used QBasic, C, C++, Java, and even assembly (briefly) and have created game engines from scratch, and I fully realize how hard they are to create. That's *exactly why* I use Game Maker now, because I'd rather focus on the actual game design than on low-level stuff like how to show a sprite on the screen and whatnot. So I recognize that creating a game engine that can't do much more than RPG Maker or Game Maker can do can be an achievement, I just don't think it's a *game design* achievement, it's more of a programming achievement. It doesn't say anything about their ability to create games one way or the other.
*hits head*
...
And, again, off on this tangent about their 'abilities to create games.' Despite the fact they've never so much as shown a glimpse of the storyline, gameplay, plot, character, etc.
And, judging by that statement, you should be sympathizing with them. You say:
"That's *exactly why* I use Game Maker now, because I'd rather focus on the actual game design than on low-level stuff like how to show a sprite on the screen and whatnot."
The EXACT same reason why they've spent the last year making professional tools and perfecting their engine. They've litterally made their OWN gamemaker, and are perfecting it before they begin on the game.
Yes, but my point was that
Yes, but my point was that making an engine and making a game require different skills. Plenty of people can make engines but not games, and vice versa. So I don't think making an engine gives one the experience required to teach other people how to make games.
Uhm...
You seen less of Gyro's game making abilities than you have Jforce's. Comparing their abilities at "making games" cannot be done--neither have created a game in the first place.
Also, when has he EVER preached how to 'make a game'? All his "how to"'s are technical and related to the programming side. Nothing has been said of design.
That may well be true, I'll
That may well be true, I'll see when I watch the videos. But just from their titles alone, I was mislead into thinking that they were about how to create games, rather than just about how to program them.
Hey hey hey!
What you said about the graphics on Elysian Shadows is completely unfair. They have released a few screenshots on their newspage of completely original environments that look absolutely amazing.
While they work on the engine and implement new things, they use ripped sprites to save time and not give away too much about their game. Nothing that you saw is "Elysian Shadows." That's just them screwing around with some ripped sprites in the engine. It shows how powerful their engine is.
They even say on their site that any screenshot containing unoriginal art is not going to be used, and I've seen what their artist can do. He's great.
I happen to be a believer in GyroVorbis's project. He's a good guy, and he has given quite a bit to the Youtube community, whereas JForce has done nothing but piss people off (look at their "how to get banned from TIGSource video")
-------
And true, JForce isn't any more arrogant than people who are just starting out, but that doesn't excuse their arrogance. You learn to not be arrogant because people don't accept arrogance when you have nothing to show off. It's a lesson that JForce needs to be taught, and I think it will ultimately make them better developers.
JForce's team is an average age of like 22 or 23? Half of Gyro's team is in high school, and they are doing amazing things on their project that are on a completely different level than JForce's newbie XNA programmer. I have been following Gyro from the very beginning about a year ago.
JForce picked a fight with a bunch of young'ns and got roughed up because their arrogance caused them to underestimate GyroVorbis's team. They don't have my pity, but their project still has my support.
Sure, it's most likely
Sure, it's most likely unfair as I know nothing about them. Maybe I'll check out their screenshots eventually, but what they're doing is already illegal: creating a game for a console without permission for one, and using artwork without permission (even if just in mockups) for two. At least JForce isn't doing anything illegitimate, even though they're arrogant and annoying.
And saying, basically, 'the fact that the part they made in their game about JForce looks horrible proves their engine is powerful' is kind of bizarre. That game about JForce could have been made in Game Maker or RPG Maker in 5 minutes (in fact I thought it was RPG Maker when I first saw it), it doesn't really show off anything powerful to me.
I have no idea about Gyrovorbis and never heard of them until JForce mentioned them in their video, so for all I know their game could turn out to be great, it's just that their video makes them seem just as arrogant and inexperienced as JForce is; they aren't giving a good impression of themselves through it. But that's fine, they don't have to, maybe investigating them further would show otherwise, but I can only go based on what evidence I've seen.
Engine
I haven't used RPG makers, but I would have thought the in game level editor and Lua prompt would have stood out. Since he developed the engine to run with Lua. I'm only assuming RPG maker doesn't have any of those. You would have to watch the Adventures in game development series to understand more of what Gyros team is doing.
Most game engines allow you
Most game engines allow you to input code directly while playing it; I know Game Maker does. I've heard RPG Maker uses Ruby scripting, so it may be similar.
I plan to watch that series, yes; I subscribed to his YouTube channel after seeing the JFail videos, and plan to go through his video archives eventually.
Wow.
By the way, I'm not really a regular here. I followed some sort of google search that took me here. I saw the "GyroVorbis vs. JForce" post, and I was like "whoah, I know those guys!"
But wow, Immortal Defense looks good. I'm going to have to snag teh demo when I get home from work.
Thanks, hope you enjoy it.
Thanks, hope you enjoy it. Sorry your first impression of the blog was negative, too -- it's just that I'm not taking any sides here, I don't think GyroVorbis is right and JForce is wrong, or vice-versa: I think this drama war between them is funny and entertaining, but immature on both sides too.
It's fine.
I completely understand, haha. But I honestly recommend you look into GyroVorbis a little farther. They are on Chapter 14 of an extremely well done "Adventures in Game Development" series and they have several "How To Get Started in Game Development" videos.
It's unfortunate that the GyroVorbis vs. JFail video was the first thing that you saw of them. Their project is basically creating their own RPG maker. They have an engine that runs environments created in an editor (that they made themselves). They can do pretty amazing things with it that are demonstrated in their usual videos (the one that you saw was an anomaly).
And I don't blame you at all. That's the exact impression that I would get if that had been all that I had seen from GyroVorbis, but their project is about quite a bit more than you saw there.
About them developing for Dreamcast, it is perfectly legal. GyroVorbis uses a library called "KallistiOS" or KOS which was basically developed by reverse engineering the Dreamcast, so it has no affiliation with Sega. There have actually been games that have been released for money with this library, and Sega even supported them. Google "Feet of Fury," "Maqiupai," "Cool Herders," and "Wind and Water Puzzle" (just came out last week). Those are all Dreamcast games that use the same legal library that Gyro is using and have been sold commercially.
I'm really glad that I wound up here (somehow). Your work looks really impressive. Consider me a new fan. I love following indie developers, and your project looks commercial quality to say the least.
Thanks, I'll look into them.
Thanks, I'll look into them. Especially because I do like RPGs and wish there were more indie RPGs (the last really good indie RPG I played was Barkley: Shut up and Jam: Gaiden).
Interesting--Haven't heard
Interesting--Haven't heard of it.
You should read some of the
You should read some of the indie game news sites then, like http://tigsource.com and http://indiegames.com/blog -- they're a good way to keep informed about indie games, I check them every day.
I still don't see the comparison...
From what I've seen, Gyro's engine could literally re-create their XNA game...I have yet to see the real comparison. True, the art shown in that video was all half-assed 8-bit sprites, but that doesn't negate the fact that Gyro's team actually has real potential.
The only real developers (I've seen) on Jforce's team are a Marketer, a Programmer, and an artist. The rest of the guy contribute ideas...Abstract things with no means to implement.
Gyro has a team of programmers. Two who've graduated with computer science degrees, one working on an electrical engineering degree. Not only this, but he's got a dedicated web developer, three artists, a musician (who happens to be a radio talk-show host), a programmer specialized in tools/software (which, honestly, look as professional as game-maker itself) and a dedicated scriptor. All mentioned people profess to have programming knowledge and extensive video gaming experience...They're all masters of their trade and have had years of experience in their respective fields.
Again, I see no real comparison, at all. The entire purpose of Jforce's video are to promote their game, not really to show off the development...Gyrovorbis's team, on the other hand, refuse to show any art, gameplay, levels, storyline, concepts, etc. Their videos are entirely for entertainment purpose and are non-promotional, yet just from those videos they show a much greater insight to the game development process than Jforce as well as their clearly superior engine.
Of course I'm going to buy both games when they come out--I don't dislike either group. I just simply feel that Gyro's team, despite the constant arrogant blabber from the marketer (which is expected, he's a marker trying to build hype), is far superior...They got the qualifications and video gaming experience to make something happen. I just cannot wait to see what. If you haven't looked into his project, I'd honestly recommend it sometime; it's very interesting and nothing short of entertaining. They're almost as funny as Jforce are arrogant...Reminds me of being a teenager again, minus alcohol and parties of course. :P
All this comparison between
All this comparison between the two seems pointless. Who cares which team has more potential? Why compare the two and try to say one is better than the other? I don't care whether my team is superior to either of their teams. The point of making games is to have fun, not to have a better team or to make better games.
Yes...
Which is precisely why I disagree with Jforce. Gyro has shown nothing but respect towards them and their project. I've seen comments on Jforce's videos by him and his team showing support. Yet at the same time, Jforce begs to differ; they insist they're superior to everybody else, and specifically called Gyro's team out of the crowd in their 'challenge' video. They practically forced the crowd to make the comparison. That's no fault but their own.
Though I hold both projects in equal respect, I personally give Gyro kudos over Jeremy for this reason. It's apparent Jeremy's in it for the money (he's confessed to it) and has the completely wrong idea about game development. He does not see it as being about good games, but rather as a competition. Gyrovorbis, on the other hand, is releasing his game without compensation and has dedicated much time to helping other developers and promoting other's projects. By declining Jforce's competitive challenge, Gyro simply highlights the differences in his motivation and shows that he's truly in this for the love of gaming rather than popularity and money.
The point IS to have fun, and I wish Jforce would see that. Yes, their (obviously false) arrogance and staged appearances may imply they're joking through 99% of their videos, but these two simple facts do still remain:
1) Their entire development series is professed to exist entirely for promotional purposes to meet a monetary goal
2) They purposely tried to stir trouble with Gyro's team via fake accounts and accusations entirely for promotional purposes. This is literally the third time they've admitted to trying to "steal gyro's subscribers."
They're the ones who see it as a challenge, not Gyro's team. I personally believe that Gyro was more than justified in his (rather humorous) response, and probably wasn't as serious as he made himself appear. All the hype circling the two videos are pointless; both sides created the videos for promotional purposes alone.
Understandable position.
Understandable position. Still, I think it's better to make friends than enemies: people only change (such as becoming less arrogant) if you're friendly towards them, otherwise they feel defensive. So if it were me or my team that JForce were challenging, I probably wouldn't have made fun of them in return. Maybe I'd have good-hearted accepted their challenge or something, or maybe invited them to work cooperatively with us on a game.
A bit of history is: I first heard of JForce on indie game messageboards, where he eventually antagonized people there enough that he was banned from one. I kind of felt the ban was too harsh, since it's good to support people who want to make games, even if they're annoying. So ever since that ban I felt sympathetic toward him.
That's sad.
Isn't it sad that you are sympathisizing and supporting a team only because they are so pathetic that they got banned from and indie game development forum?
Their subscribers are there because
1) They don't know anything about programming or game development and ar impressed easily
2) Feel sorry for them
3) Enjoy the drama
Meanwhile GyroVorbis has a loyal subscriber base that has assimilated without him or the rest of the team "harassing forums" or even lifting one finger to promote their game yet.
They launched their "website" just a few weeks ago. All of his supporters are from his videos alone.
I don't see why you're still
I don't see why you're still comparing the two. Perhaps it's just our tribal brain forcing you to take a side? :)
I don't see it as sad, I see it as compassionate. One should love even the weak and inexperienced.
Woop. ;P
Ha, realized I didn't introduce myself. I'm Jackson, 27. Began my programming career for Raytheon (missile defense) about 7 years back, and have since looked to game development as a hobby/passtime.
Interesting site you've got here, when I'm feeling less lazy I aught to create a permanent account. I actually stumbled here searching for Gyro's refute to Jforce's challenge. Gotta hand it to that kid, he's sure got style. ;P
Nice to meet you. I'm Paul,
Nice to meet you. I'm Paul, 30. I taught myself programming at 15 and have been creating freeware games since then (most of which are on mentioned somewhere or other this site).
The only real reason to create a permanent account is to get notified by email when there are new replies to your comments, although the blog is new so I haven't fully tested that yet, but it *should* work that way.
Levi
ummm gyrovorbis is better.
At what?
At what?
life. (compared to Jfarce).
life.
(compared to Jfarce).
Can't argue with that.
Can't argue with that. Neither group has finished a game though, and I doubt either ever will, so they seem about equal I'd say.
No.
Watch Falco's Chapter 15. They finished a Chu Chu Rocket Clone and a level of Super Mario Bros in a weekend. Those could both be called "games."
I'll watch chapter 15
I'll watch chapter 15 eventually, I haven't started on that series yet.
awesome
that video is cool. I love gaming.
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